Radian Group Inc. (RDN) on Q1 2021 Results - Earnings Call Transcript
Operator: Welcome to the Radian's First Quarter 2021 Earnings Call. My name is Jenny . I'll be your operator for today's call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Later, we will conduct a question-and-answer session. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I will now turn the call over to John Damian, Senior Vice President of Investor Relations. Mr. Damian, you may begin.
John Damian: Thank you, and welcome to Radian's first quarter 2021 conference call. Our press release, which contains Radian's financial results for the quarter was issued yesterday evening and is posted to the Investor section of our website at www.radian.com. This press release includes certain non-GAAP measures, which will be discussed during today's call including adjusted pretax operating income, adjusted diluted net operating income per share, adjusted net operating return on equity and real estate adjusted EBITDA.
Rick Thornberry: Thank you, John, and good morning. Thank you all for joining us today and for your interest in Radian. While the unprecedented pandemic environment continues in 2021, we were encouraged by the continued signs of improvement of the overall economy as well as the positive momentum in the housing markets and the favorable credit trends within our portfolio. Frank will discuss the details of our financial position shortly. Let me first share a few highlights and insights from the first quarter. We reported net income of $125.6 million or $0.64 per share. Adjusted diluted net operating income per share was $0.68. We grew our book value per share by 9% year-over-year. We achieved this growth even after accounting for the $100 million of dividends that we returned to stockholders over the past year. For our mortgage segment, we remained focused on maximizing the economic value and the future earnings of our mortgage insurance portfolio. During the first quarter, we wrote $20.2 billion of high quality, high value, new mortgage insurance business at attractive premium levels and our primary insurance in force was $238.9 billion at March 31st. I want to discuss a few important factors related to our mortgage insurance business in the first quarter specifically, the credit performance of our portfolio, the mortgage insurance pricing landscape, the changes in our insurance in force portfolio and the overall housing market.
Frank Hall: Thank you, Rick and good morning, everyone. To recap our financial results issued last evening. We reported GAAP net income of $125.6 million or $0.64 per diluted share for the first quarter of 2021 as compared to net income of $0.76 per diluted share in the fourth quarter of 2020 and net income of $0.70 per diluted share in the first quarter of 2020. Adjusted diluted net operating income was $0.68 per share in the first quarter of 2021 as compared to adjusted diluted net operating income per share of $0.69 in the fourth quarter of 2020 and adjusted diluted net operating income per share of $0.80 in the first quarter of 2020. I'll now turn to the key drivers of our revenue. As Rick mentioned earlier, our new insurance written was $20.2 billion during the quarter compared to $29.8 billion in the fourth quarter of 2020 and $16.7 billion in the first quarter of 2020. New insurance written for refinances was 41% of total new insurance written for the first quarter 2021 which was an increase relative to 35% in the fourth quarter of 2020 and 34% for the same quarter in the prior year. Direct, monthly and other recurring premium policies were 90% of our new insurance written this quarter relatively flat from 91% for the fourth quarter of 2020 and an increase from the 81% for the first quarter a year ago. Which also means that single premium policies were only 10% of our quarterly new business down significantly from a year ago when single premium policies represented approximately 19% of first quarter 2020 new insurance written? In total, borrower paid policies were 99% of our new business for the first quarter as our intentional shift away from lender paid policies has continued. Primary insurance in force decreased to $238.9 billion at the end of the quarter as compared to $246.1 billion in the fourth quarter of 2020. With a total year-over-year insurance in force decline of approximately 1%. Our year-over-year decrease in primary insurance in force was primarily driven by sustained loan persistency as well as servicer reconciliation activity in the second half of 2020, which resulted in the cancellation of single premium policies representing approximately 2% of our total insurance in force. It is important to note that monthly premium insurance in force which drives a majority of our earned premiums has grown almost 9% year-over-year compared to an approximate 26% decline in single premium insurance in force. The decline in single premium insurance in force is positive as prepayments on our single premium business enhanced realized returns as the life over which the single premium is recognized is shortened.
Rick Thornberry: Thank you, Frank. Before we open the call to your questions. Let me highlight for you that, we increased book value per share by 9% year-over-year and maintained the strong capital position with $1.3 billion of total holding company liquidity and Radian Guaranty's PMIERs access available assets grew to $1.5 billion. We're seeing signs of continuing improvement in the overall economy and in the credit performance of our portfolio. Based on this improved outlook in March, we resumed our share repurchase program that was suspended temporarily last year in response to the pandemic and we announced the increase of our quarterly dividend. Importantly, our business model continues to demonstrate through the cycle resiliency. We in the overall mortgage market have been building since the last financial crisis. Additionally, we look forward to hosting a virtual Real Estate Segment Investor Day on June 10 where we will share more details about our plans for these businesses including our upcoming launches at some highly innovative digital products and services across our title and real estate platforms. And most importantly, I want to thank our amazing team who's showing commitment to our customers, our company and to each other as we have worked together to successfully navigate this challenging environment. I'm very proud of the entire team. Now operator, we'll be happy to take questions.
Operator: our first question comes from Mark DeVries from Barclays. Please go ahead.
Mark DeVries: It looks like market share shifted around a fair amount this quarter in NIW. Could you just talk about and it looks like you guys lost some share with NIW down quarter-over-quarter? Can you just talk about what might have caused that or there certain deposit to risk you might have stepped away from or were there some chunkier pieces of business from some of the larger non-bank originators that you might have missed out on?
Derek Brummer: Thank you, Mark. This is Derek. Look in terms of market share movements not really mystery these days in terms of drives, that's really just relative pricing in the industry. So when you see mortgage insurance company picking up share, it's generally driven by the fact that they just lowered pricing relative to peers. Now we've talked about in the past, we're constantly adjusting our pricing figuring out the best cost to optimize economic value. You typically see, I would say more minor market share movements quarter-to-quarter. Now when you see large market share movements on a quarter-over-quarter basis. Traditionally, that's really been driven by a shifting in forward bulk bid volume, one MI company went. So one quarter loses another quarter now. That's not the driver for us, so when you look at our movement Q4 to Q1, we don't have forward bulk bid volume in our Q4 volume to lose in Q1. What we see that was a bit different this quarter, as we saw relatively large market share movements actually within the industry, so called black-box pricing engines and for us, radar rates. And so when you see larger movements within the pricing engines that's generally not a function of, I would say the typical price adjustments where you have different companies calibrating for certain segments. Generally the driver there is you'd have a competitor that would have done more I'd say broad price reductions within their engine. Now that being said, what we're seeing now are kind of signs of stabilization from a price perspective and certainly, where we see those rates settling out. We still see very strong returns and great value overall. The other thing to keep in mind, if you think about our strategic approach. We certainly been in an era of increased price volatility. So you had COVID occurred, you had MI's companies raise their price, they've been lowering them throughout the year and then momentum like that it's typical that we would lose some share because strategically we're not going to be price leader downwards in terms of price. But we're going to be quicker to raise prices when we seek risk off cycle. That being said, it's important to kind of step back though because while you're going to have the kind of some distribution market share that will move quarter-to-quarter. If you think about the industry, the long-term we expect that would settle out generally to a pro rata distribution and again you'll kind of be above it, below it in certain quarters. Our focus continues to be really long-term economic value. So we're constantly trying to calibrate our pricing defined market clearing levels that we think optimize the long-term economic value. That being said, kind of where the industry is right now it's important to keep in mind too just the extremely strong economic and housing tailwinds and just a very large overall market. So market share will be up and down in certain quarters. But long-term, big market generally probably everyone is going to get their pro rata share in the long-term.
Mark DeVries: Okay, that's very helpful color. On a related topic, the insurance in force was down quarter-over-quarter and obviously part of that was, the share loss in NIW. I think another part of that is just the fact that you guys have pulled back from singles relative to what you've done a couple years ago. At what point would you expect kind of the headwind to insurance in force growth from the run off of your singles book to start to fade.
Rick Thornberry: Mark, this is Rick. And I think first off, I appreciate the question on insurance in force. I think what we've seen occur recently over the last few quarters. There's really favorable transition. Sometimes, we think changes in insurance in force decline might be considered negative. But as we've gone through this process this past year. There were pretty highly accelerated refinance volume. We've really seen the construct of our portfolio change dramatically in terms of what's actually happening behind the scene. So I think as we've highlighted, we've seen monthly book of business grow by 9% year-over-year and we've seen those decline by 26%. More importantly to your point, the lender paid singles book is down 42% year-over-year and it's a tremendous transition. Now those are both good trends, right? Because growing our monthly book of business during 2020 and 2021 vintages at low interest rates, high quality. As I said in my opening remarks, that's a positive trend. The singles acceleration actually acts a little bit as a hedge in our business because as refinance accelerated, we saw an acceleration of earned revenue which obviously on those policies improves the return. It reduces the extension risk of single premium and so as we've said for the last few years. We kind of pull back away where lender paid singles which are kind of the greatest expansion risk and greatest cost to capital. We kind of pulled back materially. But that portfolio is accelerated and we've earned the returns, at probably higher than anticipated level. So not a positive transition of portfolio, how that plays out going forward? I think it's still somewhat depending upon refinance volume in the marketplace. And I think over the kind of medium term we expect refinances to slow down and persistency to increase. What happens in the next quarter too I think it's likely to be somewhat volatile? We'll play through it. But I think longer term as you see refinances decline. We would expect that persistency to return to kind of the long-term levels as Derek highlighted there are strong tailwinds in the originations in terms of strong purchase market, high quality, strong housing market obviously and I think that really positions us well to kind of use that as refinances settle now and use that strong home purchase market to build and grow the value of our insurance in force. So I think we feel very good about the transition that's been made and we're very bullish on the prospects for related to growing the value of the portfolio.
Mark DeVries: Okay, great. Thank you.
Operator: And our next question comes from Doug Harter from Credit Suisse. Please go ahead.
Doug Harter: I was hoping you could help us on potential sizing of the share repurchase just a little bit more detail around when you turned the share repurchase program back on in March and given the movement of stock today. I guess how you might be thinking about opportunistic purchases?
Frank Hall: Sure, this is Frank. So as you noted, we did reinstitute a new 10b5-1 plan in March of this year, so late in the quarter. So the number of shares that you saw use repurchase represents only one month of repurchase activity. In our buyback program similar to the ones previously are value based in approach and so that is something that we've remained committed to and it's been very successful for us in the past. We have $190 million remaining in our current authorization that expires on August 31 of this year. So we'll keep you posted each quarter with the repurchase activity that we see in the quarter and also what remains in the authorization and what future plans maybe around capital returned.
Doug Harter: And I know you mentioned in your prepared remarks, what was the average purchase price of shares during March?
Frank Hall: $20.91.
Doug Harter: Great, thank you.
Operator: And our next question comes from Mihir Bhatia from Bank of America. Please go ahead.
Mihir Bhatia: First question I wanted to ask, I want to go back to Mark's question NIW. And I guess just from your perspective I wanted to see, the $20 billion in NIW in 1Q was fairly a little bit below what a lot of cost , at least I was expecting. Maybe you can just talk about what was it relative to just your own expectations. How do you view that? Are you happy with it? Or is that something that you would look at as your peers report and think about changes to either pricing or talking to your salesforce or what have you?
Derek Brummer: Sure, this is Derek. So in terms of that, we're certainly happy with the overall volume that goes back to, it's a large market and very strong tailwind. So the way we kind of look at it and in terms of what others are doing is again just looking for relative value. So again pricing in terms of the market is going to shake out to that pro rata level and what we're kind of looking for is, is the market kind of reaching I would say at stabilization point from a pricing perspective. What you had typically expect to see, you see a price increase and then again everyone's kind of coming back down. The question is where you stabilize out and that's what I indicated. We're starting to see some signs at stabilization with respect to that. It's always kind of hard to time that and to that point earlier, it's kind of downward pricing cycle. Which is again I think adjusting to just the improved economic condition. We're probably not going be leading that downward. We'll be following and recalibrating pricing accordingly. As you reach more of equilibrium point and get back to that pro rata distribution, that's where our strategy really comes into fold in terms of finding the highest value spots, within that with the equilibrium pricing and so that's kind of I think where we've shifted in terms of the cycle. So overtime again, I would expect that to market share again to probably stabilize out towards more of a pro rata share long-term.
Mihir Bhatia: Got it. Well that's helpful. Thank you. If I can maybe ask about returns then. Just a couple of quick ones on that, the first one is just health of return expectation from the business changed compared relative to your mid-teens through a sizable longer term pricing algorithm if you will? Is that still the case here? So these price changes are lowering.
Derek Brummer: Sure, this is Derek. Now what's so good about those target return levels. So we really haven't seen any shift with respect to that and overall again as I indicated, we see strong value in the market and really is a matter of just a relative value play. So as we're putting our capital to work, we've always said we're looking highest value segment of the market. So we're constantly calibrating pricing some up, some down and as we're doing that and trying to find those spots then you're going to see some market share moves with respect to that. I think again, when you're at more volatile pricing cycle which I think we're just coming out of, as you're doing calibrating if ever competitors are doing kind of broader shifts downward pricing, that can - lead to more significant shifts in market share and that's might have been what we saw this quarter.
Mihir Bhatia: Got it. Thank you. And then I guess just one last question from me. In terms of returns, Rick you mentioned 47% I think of your book was written in 2020 and 2021. When you generally had higher pricing that are prices lower interest rates? So if the economy continues to improve as we all expect, is that reasonable for us to expect above average returns for like almost half year book? Just given that it was the way pricing was done on that book or am I over thinking this?
Rick Thornberry: Mihir, thanks for the question. I would add to Derek's earlier comments to say, look as we're slower to lead pricing down as we come out of this transition. Obviously, the result of that is that, our volume is attracting higher premium levels and as we see economic recovery forward, it should speak well to the returns on that book of business. So as we look, the transition has gone through and our insurance in force. So really the almost half, certainly over half I think of our monthly book of business. But almost half of our entire book of business has been originated in the last 12 months, at these rates and at these pricing levels. I think that does speak well for the future especially as we see the economy. Again, we're not here to provide kind of forward outlook. But I think the assumption as we see this economic recovery those books will perform better than originally anticipated, is probably a reasonable assumption.
Mihir Bhatia: Thank you for taking my questions.
Operator: And our next question comes from Randy Binner from B. Riley. Please go ahead.
Randy Binner: I unless shift away from this pricing commentary a little bit and I wanted to ask, one about persistency and so on the annualized figure that you all communicate. It looks maybe like persistency is bouncing along the bottom. So that looks better than I would have expected. So the question in there is, is it stabilizing or is it still going to be volatile and down? Is it possible that this kind of persistency shift if you will, with this housing market could be different than what we've seen in the past? And so what I mean by that is, your refi activity and persistency are kind of offsetting factors in the model. But you just have incredibly strong housing market right now. And so I'm just wondering if, there might be anything different in the way persistency is acting this time around and if we should plan to continue to be kind of low and volatile.
Frank Hall: Sure, Randy. This is Frank. On persistency I mean that's largely going to be driven by refinance activity. And that of course is impacted by the rate environment. So to the extent we have seen the bottom of rates from a mortgage perspective. I think you should expect to see that persistency number come up to more natural longer-term levels than high 70s, low 80s type of level. Now that's call it a normalized stable and slightly increasing rate environment. But yes, I would agree with you that as those rates level out and maybe increase a little bit that is net positive for our persistency.
Randy Binner: I guess the difference between this time around and before other cycles like would be, I think refi, this is a product. I mean I understand the function of rates. But there's a lot more entities out there pushing refi and I think there's just generally kind of more interest in the housing market from consumers. So is there, I guess if the answer as you think this will go to historical trend in short order that's understood. But is it possible that because of all the push out there for refi in a generally housing market, that you could see persistency that continue to be more volatile, perhaps and we've seen in more traditional refi cycles?
Rick Thornberry: I think it's a great question, I think Randy. I've been in this mortgages industry for over 30 years and I have to tell you quite honestly, I've never seen a mortgage industry missing refinance opportunity, whether it's brokers, whether it's originators, whether it's large banks. So I don't know that today any different from the past. We may give a leverage better technology. But it still comes down to the consumers ability and willingness to exercise the option. But I think historically there's always been aggressive push for refinances when they're in the money. And I think we've seen that through this cycle and again I think it's all going to be based upon how interest rates are relative to the current outstanding mortgage book in the US. And obviously rates have come up. We're seeing that will have some impact. But how that plays out over the future. I think we'll have the greatest determine and refinances versus one there's more or less focus from a mortgage industry point of view. There are new and different players. But having been in this business forever and refinance cycles I think ultimately, it's a capacity issue and we've seen many of the refinance pipeline expand out to well in expensive normal periods for closing. So I think we're still seeing some of that come through. But I think it's ultimately going to be driven by interest rates and where borrowers are in the money from option refinance and obviously will be driven by the level of mortgage rates. So hard to predict how it plays out. I think it's going to be volatile in the near term and over the long-term, it will depend upon where rates settle out.
Randy Binner: All right, I appreciate that. Thanks.
Operator: And our next question comes from Bose George from KBW. Please go ahead.
Bose George: So I just don't mean to beat a dead horse here on the pricing stuff. But just wanted to go back to that. A couple of questions. One, the bulk bid market, has that remained fairly stable in terms of the size versus the overall market? Just wanted to see that's impacting the shares shifts at all? And then on the pricing, I mean to summarize is it fair to say that, what's going is that the industry is giving back a lot of the post-COVID increases. Given credit has normalized, you haven't quite gotten there yet and as you do, the pro rata share should kind of come back to you.
Derek Brummer: Yes, so I think in the first question. I think it's pretty stable in terms of the size of the forward bulk bid business. So I don't think we've seen significant shifts in terms of that. So as you see movements between MI companies it's maybe not on much different volumes. Sometimes the volume can shift just because those winters that do that might be picking up volume relative to other originators. It's probably the best way and then in terms of pricing. I think it's generally a fair summation of what you said in terms of just giving back kind of previous increases and as again, that's why I kind of referred to that equilibrium point. You kind of reached certain point where there's a little bit more stability. I think we were in that phase probably going into COVID and I would say, you tend to see pretty stable market share numbers in the black-box pricing engines. You still would see at that point, the shift in the forward bulk bid volume. That's what we would expect to see more of a return and hope to see more of a return to that more stabilized pricing environment and then, you're right, you would see everyone moving around more of a pro rata distribution.
Bose George: Okay, great. Thanks. And if you just, switching over the capital return. As you guys noted, you've got a lot of capital at the holding company, which puts you in a good position relative to - given the FHA restrictions still on dividend up to the whole Co. . I was just curious, like is there any sort of balancing act there or could you aggressively buy back shares while there's sort of just ongoing restriction from the insurance company?
Frank Hall: Bose, this is Frank. I think the point that we emphasized here is that we have managed our capital and liquidity in such a way that we have all the optionality that we need, that is consistent with our strategic plan and our capital management intention. So the dividend restriction from the operating company to the parent company really doesn't factor into any aspects of how we're running the business and so I think that puts us in a very fortunate position and certainly enables us to continue with our capital plants accordingly.
Bose George: Okay, great. Thanks.
Operator: And our next question comes from Ryan Gilbert from BTIG. Please go ahead.
Ryan Gilbert: My first question is around single premium policies. I know you discussed it earlier. But I'm wondering if you have a target for the percentage of your total insurance in force you would like single premium policies to be and as the percentage of your insurance in force that single premium shrinks. When you're thinking about future QSR programs, does it make sense to move to a more traditional QSR versus a single premium QSR, which you've done in the past?
Derek Brummer: Yes, this is Derek. So we don't have a target. Generally our approach since we're looking at relative value. We're looking at relative returns and those are going to shift depending upon our economic projection. So singles and monthly's are going to have different sensitivities to things like interest rates. So that's an important component. But arguably even more important component just where the competitor pricing is, so to the extent that we see relative value moving in singles versus monthly's, you would expect to see relative shift there and vice versa. So we're not pegging to a particular percentage of volume. In terms of risk distribution structures, yes, we're open to different structures in terms of optimizing our return, our capital and our risk position. And so even our most recent ILN transaction also running singles production through there as well. So in the future, that could be that we would change our reinsurance as well. But again, what we're going to look in all of those structures are kind of the relative efficiency and pricing for the risk distribution structure and those also can vary depending upon whether you're distributing singles or monthly, so kind of not an easy answer. It sort of depends.
Ryan Gilbert: Okay and just as a follow-up. Has there been any meaningful change in the return profile of singles versus monthly over the last few months?
Derek Brummer: No overall, I don't think there's been change in terms of return profile. I think generally with the improving economy and we kind of talked about this earlier. As we look at the business and the expectation from the economic outlook. The returns all things being equal, would marginally improve and I think that's kind of will be across the board.
Ryan Gilbert: Okay, got it. Second question from me, in your real estate services business. I'm wondering how you're thinking about growing that business organically versus using M&A to accelerate your strategic plan there?
Rick Thornberry: Ryan, this is Rick. So appreciate the question. We're obviously focused on building through organic growth. We do keep up a watchful eye towards acquisition opportunities. Frank and John and I and the team. We look at acquisitions. It's been quite an active pipeline recently. We don't see a lot of value truthfully in many things that we look at. They're either overvalued or maybe over appreciated. So I think from a business strategy point of view. We're focused on the organic growth. On June 10 as I announced in my opening comments, we're going to provide a Real Estate Segment Investor Day and walk everybody through how we see that business, the opportunity we see and then some of the interesting technologies and product and services that we have launched and are launching kind of going forward. So we're kind of pull back the curtain on the business a little bit more because we do think over, a value driven business. But I'd say today the organic growth of our title business is actually accelerating with the addition of several new customers and these are large. I'd call them blue chip type customers. Which is starting to grow their revenues on that? As Frank said, we've been making the investment to enable the on boarding of this client. So the organic growth of that business is accelerating. Our mortgage insurance relationships matter there and have been an important element of us expanding our relationship. I think we're also very excited about the investments which we're making across our digital title business - digital real estate business and our software as service business because again which we'll talk more about on the 10. But I think as we sit here today, we're going to build a business. It is accumulation of acquisitions already. But our focus is really on organic growth and if we saw attractive opportunities from an acquisition point of view, that were highly accretive and we thought strategically value to the overall picture. We certainly would consider it today, to focus on growing these business organically. And we can see the development of these business starting to come together and we're very excited about - and again look forward to kind of walking more through this on June 10th.
Ryan Gilbert: Okay, great. Thanks very much.
Operator: And our next question comes from Phil Stefano from Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead.
Phil Stefano: Just a few quick ones to start. Frank, you had mentioned that the 10b5-1 was put in place in March. Can you put a fine point on that? Is that early, mid, late?
Frank Hall: Sure, it was early.
Phil Stefano: Okay, fantastic. I think one of the prepared remarks comments you had mentioned that there was favorable development with some defaults prior to 2021. Was any of that from the COVID defaults of 2020?
Frank Hall: No.
Phil Stefano: Okay, other operating expenses had a slight benefit from T&E. is there any way you can frame for us the extent of that benefit and thinking about how quickly it might come back as the world reopens?
Frank Hall: I won't put fine point on it for you. But over the course of a normal year, it's a few million dollars and we'll see how that comes back online. I would also say Phil that, what we've learned in the COVID environment is quite a bit about what it takes to operate the business and so we would expect to see some permanent gains in efficiency perhaps as we evaluate our travel and entertainment expenses on a go forward basis. So I wouldn't want to calibrate back to pre-COVID level. But I also wouldn't want to put a finer point on it for you.
Phil Stefano: Okay, no that makes sense. I think that's enough to think about. So the last one is, that I have for you is on real estate segment. How should we be thinking about the expenses here? It feels like the past couple of quarters expenses have been relatively flat and it's the revenue that's kind of fluctuated. Is that the right way to think about this as we're building the investments and getting this ready for the next wave of the real estate segment lifecycle?
Rick Thornberry: Yes, Phil thank you. And I would say, look the revenue I'll give you both the revenue and the expense side. So the revenue volatility has really been driven by two things. One is our title revenue is growing more or less offset by decline in kind of the REO business over the past year because of the foreclosure moratoriums. Now obviously that REO business will make some come back in the future as these moratoriums as lifted. We've also seen kind of little bit more of a slowdown in some of the valuation aspects of the business especially related to SFR been little bit chunky at times. But I would say overall, that's the trade on the revenue side. On the expense side, so we do continue to carry some of the expenses related to those business that have been impacted from a revenue point of view. We're also growing our title business to be prepared on board, some very clients. So I'll just give you. I think yesterday's volume in our title business was the largest ever. I think from a new orders point of view and we've seen continued record-breaking levels. As we onboard new clients and expand these assumed relationships. So we've been staffing ahead to be in a position to onboard and we go through the training cycle and so forth. So I think we're - part of the expense build up is staffing ahead of these anticipated client on boarding. But one category is really related to lead significant investment we're making and traditional platforms across both their title and our real estate business. We're building really a very new and different type title platform that we'll talk more about in June that we'll launch this summer. I think it will be very innovative to the market as we building the title business from the path to building it from the future and across our real estate business. We continue to invest in, the day-to-day and around real estate information and the software as a service platform so you have a valuation as a transaction. So we'll be making an investment. You can think of it like a - we could say, we'll make start up investment in these businesses. But we're making the investments towards what we see as a future and we do see value occurring ahead of earnings and as I said last quarter, we don't see these in the near term. Moving the EPS, but we do see value ahead of earnings. And I think some of the market comps that we've seen over the last few quarters are around kind of fintech, title businesses quite popular today. I think investors who are making towards digital future in business is something that is very valued. We look forward to talk to you more about it on June 10th.
Phil Stefano: Thanks I'm looking forward to it too.
Operator: We have no further questions at this time. I will turn it over to Rick Thornberry for any closing remarks.
Rick Thornberry: Thank you and I want to thank everybody for your interest in Radian and joining us today and your great questions. I look forward to either meeting with you virtually or seeing you soon. Depending upon how all things transition. And again, thank you for - all. I want to thank our team at Radian for all that they're doing to serve our customers and really work well as a team across our organization and I look forward for the next time that we have an opportunity to talk about our business and hope everybody stays well. Be safe. Take care.
Operator: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. This concludes today's conference. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.
