Ategrity Specialty Holdings LLC (ASIC) on Q3 2025 Results - Earnings Call Transcript
Operator: Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining us today for Ategrity's Third Quarter Fiscal Year 2025 Earnings Results Conference Call. Speaking today are Justin Cohen, Chief Executive Officer; Chris Schenk, President and Chief Underwriting Officer; and Neelam Patel, Chief Financial Officer. After Justin, Chris and Neelam have made their formal remarks, we will open the call to questions. [Operator Instructions] Before we begin, I would like to mention that certain matters discussed in today's conference call are forward-looking statements relating to future events, management's plans and objectives for the business and the future financial performance of the company that are subject to risks and uncertainties. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in these forward-looking statements. The risk factors that may affect results are referred to in our press release issued today, our final prospectus and other filings filed with the SEC. We do not undertake any obligation to update the forward-looking statements made today. Finally, the speakers may refer to certain adjusted or non-GAAP financial measures on this call. A reconciliation of the non-GAAP financial measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measures is also available in our press release issued today, a copy of which may be obtained by visiting the Investor Relations website at investors.ategrity.com. I will now turn the call over to Justin.
Justin Cohen: Good evening, and thank you all for joining Ategrity's third quarter 2025 earnings call. This is Justin Cohen, and I am joined here today by Chris Schenk, our President and Chief Underwriting Officer; and Neelam Patel, our CFO. Ategrity delivered record results this quarter. Gross written premiums grew 30% year-over-year, including accelerating growth in property lines. Our combined ratio improved to 88.7% as we began to demonstrate operating leverage. With investment income, our adjusted net income was $22.8 million, translating into 78% year-over-year growth. These results were ahead of guidance despite industry data pointing to a deceleration in the E&S market. We believe that's because we are executing a model that is truly differentiated. It's built on specialization, analytics, automation and distribution, and we are capitalizing on these strengths to drive sustainable growth and profits. This was a quarter characterized by expanding top line, operating leverage and improved economics. First, on top line growth. We achieved a 30% increase in gross written premiums, supported by 70% submission growth. That's 7-0, not 17. Our distribution network is exceptionally large for a company our size, and we are driving deeper engagement by bringing new and attractive solutions to the market. Second, on operating leverage. Our operating expense ratio improved 2.7 percentage points as prior investments in infrastructure and process efficiency began to deliver. Expense growth moderated while earned premiums accelerated, and we are realizing this upside even as we invest in new lines of business and next-generation technologies that are expected to drive the next phase of leverage. Finally, on improved economics. Our policy acquisition ratio improved 1.8 percentage points as we continue to optimize our business mix. We have been deliberately increasing the percentage of our premiums written in our brokerage channel where acquisition costs are lower. This has been underway for several quarters and is now earning through in our results. Now turning back to the broader E&S market, where headwinds have emerged in certain areas. Competitive intensity has increased, but conditions remain rational in the small- and medium-sized space. This segment has remained relatively insulated given the challenges that new entrants face in trying to profitably write $10,000 policies without the requisite scale. Against that backdrop, we are focused on extending Ategrity's structural advantages of speed, competitive products and technical pricing to drive disciplined share gains. So with that, I'll now turn it over to Neelam for the financials.
Neelam Patel: Thanks, Justin. We delivered another strong quarter of financial performance. Adjusted net income came in at $22.8 million, up from $12.9 million in the same quarter last year, driven by top line growth, improving margins and higher investment income. Let me walk you through the main line items, starting with premiums. Gross written premiums grew by 30% in the quarter. Casualty premiums increased by 41%, while property premiums went up by 11%, both contributing meaningfully to our overall growth. Net written premiums grew by 42%, reflecting a higher retention rate year-over-year. Net earned premiums were up by 29%, reflecting the natural led earnings recognition of our growth trajectory and a quota share reinsurance treaty we placed in 2024. Net earned premium growth accelerated sequentially, consistent with our prior comments of abating headwinds in the second half. Our fee income came in at $2.2 million compared to $0.2 million a year ago, reflecting higher policy fees as we continue to implement standard market practices. Turning to underwriting results. Our underwriting income for the quarter was $10.6 million, up nearly 208% year-over-year. This translates into a combined ratio of 88.7%, an improvement from 95.3% last year due to reductions in both our loss and expense ratio. The loss ratio declined 2.1 points to 60% with strong underlying results in our property business. In the current quarter, we had no prior year development compared to 1.7 points last year that were related to a change in how we reserved for legal expenses. Catastrophe losses represented 4% of net earned premium this quarter, down from 12.1% last year, which had an active hurricane season. Our expense ratio declined 4.5 points to 28.7%, reflecting improvements in both operating efficiency and business mix. Operating expenses represented 10.8% of net earned premiums, down 2.7 points from last year and also lower than the second quarter of 2025. The declines were driven by expense leverage and higher fee income. Policy acquisition costs as a percentage of net earned premiums declined to 17.9% from 19.7%. The improvement was primarily driven by favorable mix shift as growth has been concentrated in lines of businesses carrying lower gross commission rates and higher ceding commissions. Moving on to investment results. Net investment income was $11 million in the third quarter, up from $6.8 million last year, driven by increased assets from our IPO and higher yields on our fixed income portfolio. Realized and unrealized gains contributed another $9.2 million, supported by strong results in our absolute return portfolio. Our effective tax rate for the quarter was 20.6%, bringing the net income to $22.7 million. Adjusted net income, which adds back IPO-related compensation costs was $22.8 million or $0.46 per diluted share. Turning briefly to the balance sheet. Our cash and investments grew by $86 million from the second quarter to $1.1 billion, reflecting strong operating cash flow. Book value increased by $29 million, driven by $23 million attributable to increased retained earnings and the rest to increased AOCI. Our book value per share ended the quarter at $12.24. With that, I will hand it over to Chris to talk about our underwriting and operating performance.
Chris Schenk: Thanks, Neelam. Ategrity grew 30% and improved margins this quarter. I'll talk to you about the contributors to those results, and then I will provide some perspective on why our differentiated underwriting approach is resonating in the current market. I'll start with top line production. Retentions remained stable. We achieved mid- to high single-digit renewal rate increases. That was in both property and casualty and new business growth was very strong. Four key points illustrate the quality of this growth. First, there was record high demand for Ategrity quotes. This was in both property and casualty, where we saw submissions increase more than 70% year-over-year. Second, we saw stronger partner engagement. Our 2023 and 2024 distribution cohorts contributed meaningfully. They delivered same-store growth in the range of 80%. Third, we expanded our distribution reach. After more than doubling our distribution network from 2022 to 2024, the number of active distribution partner once again grew this year by another 25%. This extends our runway for growth. And fourth, we maintain discipline underwriting. Our hit ratio was in line with plan. That is low single digits in brokerage, and this is because we are staying selective and firm on price. Last quarter, we highlighted 3 growth initiatives: the retail trade vertical, which we launched in brokerage, our professional liability lines and Project Heartland, our Midwest regional strategy. Each once again contributed meaningfully in Q3. Together, they accounted for about half of our growth. Turning to underwriting margins. In our property book, we experienced lower frequency and lower severity. And relative to expectations, casualty losses are developing favorably. We recorded a conservative firm-wide loss ratio of 60%, although our pricing loss ratio is meaningfully lower. From an operating leverage standpoint, while net written premium grew more than 40%, we realized efficiency gains across our business. This translated into only moderate expense growth. In Q3, we processed record submissions and quotes and manage a larger in-force book, all while delivering the speed and service that our brokers expect. As we maintain a conservative hit ratio, automation continues to safeguard operating margins. We also reduced acquisition costs. This is because we wrote more business in our broker channel and capitalized on 2 new growth initiatives. The first initiative is our digital brokerage channel. We launched a technology-enabled solution that provides small business agents with streamlined access to our brokerage product. These agents occasionally need to place midsized policies and have limited options to do so. Through Ategrity's digital brokerage, they can now receive quotes on midsized accounts with what we believe is market-leading response times. The second initiative is a specialty offering for our real estate vertical. We innovated a product that addresses the evolving lending requirements for multifamily developers. These requirements are imposed by Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and the larger banking sector, and we have developed a casualty product that responds to those requirements. This is very different than our standard casualty offering. And as far as we know, there's nothing comparable in the market. As a result, we have been able to distribute it while achieving superior policy acquisition economics. Finally, turning to our competitive positioning. In Q3, a record number of brokers wanted to present an Ategrity quote to their clients. As we have talked about, our pricing tends to be higher than our competitors. So we believe that this demand is driven by the appeal of our product. Instead of relying on unfair exclusions and wording ambiguity, we deliver fast, high-quality quotes with coverage that the insured actually needs. And for that, we charge a fair and technically sound price. Brokers are telling us that they want an integrity quote because they know and trust our product. With tighter lending standards and a more volatile political and judicial environment, there is heightened focus on coverage quality and contract certainty. And our product strategy, which offers clear comprehensive coverage with only the necessary exclusions is standing out in a very crowded marketplace. So those are some of the dynamics behind our results. In short, Ategrity's productionized underwriting model is doing exactly what it was designed to do. It's delivering disciplined growth and expanding margins and at the same time, it's strengthening our position in the market. With that, I'll hand it back to Justin.
Justin Cohen: Thanks, Chris. This was another strong quarter for Ategrity. It reflects an organization that is analytical, efficient and innovative. We are a company that does what we say we're going to do, and we remain focused on driving towards sustainable world-class returns. For the second quarter in a row, we delivered gross written premium growth more than 20 percentage points above the E&S market. As we look toward the fourth quarter, we believe we have the partner engagement, submission flow and delivery capabilities to achieve that outcome again. Based on the industry's current growth pace, we believe that would translate into roughly 30% year-over-year growth. From a margin perspective, we are aiming to deliver a 90% combined ratio in the fourth quarter. Finally, we look forward to spending time with investors and analysts in the days ahead. In addition to discussing our results and strategy, we would love to hear investor input on balancing additional insider support through open market purchases with the desire to increase public float. We intend to increase our float in the course of time at appropriate valuations, as other specialty insurance companies have after their IPOs. We greatly care about doing the right thing for investors, so I would appreciate your feedback on this topic. With that, I thank you again for your time and interest in Ategrity. Operator, please open the line for questions.
Operator: [Operator Instructions] Your first question comes from the line of Alex Scott with Barclays.
Taylor Scott: First one I had is on the property market and just what you're seeing in the environment. On the casualty side, it sounded like some of the things you're doing are pretty bespoke and nuanced. Do you feel like as we head into 2026, you're going to be able to continue growing in property, the rates you've been growing though?
Justin Cohen: Yes. In property, if you'll recall, we talked about last quarter that in the third quarter of 2024, we began raising rates actually somewhat materially in small- to medium-sized property. In the third quarter of this year, therefore, we lapped those rates. We're not going to get into 2026. But as we're looking forward, you see that we accelerated. Well, you see that we accelerated in this quarter from the growth from last quarter, and we're hopeful that we can achieve the same. It is more of just doing -- executing our business model and having now gotten ahead of the curve on pricing.
Taylor Scott: That's really helpful. Second thing I wanted to ask you about is just some of the continuation of what we've been doing with technology, but I think it was mentioned earlier on the call that you were looking to advance some of that further. And I was just interested in some of the things you're working on, some of the areas you might push on the tech front to further what you're doing in the market.
Justin Cohen: Great. I'll pass it over to Chris to talk about some of the innovations that are actually launching now and others as well in the future.
Chris Schenk: Yes. So as you know, we've been launching pre-price solutions and some OCR AI-enabled intake automation processes and a number of different innovations across the business. We have an innovation lab that we funded about a year ago that is now bringing all of these stand-alone solutions into one single platform. That is going to be a critical unlock for us in the coming quarters. But what it does, it makes delivery of innovation much more efficient and which we already have an efficient approach to development. But in terms of maintenance of an innovation ecosystem, having everything in one platform allows us to get more value out of it and also enhance it as technology evolves.
Operator: The next question comes from the line of Pablo Singzon with JPMorgan.
Pablo Singzon: With the employment picture and small business optimism softening a bit, have you seen any change in the economic health of your clients?
Justin Cohen: We have not seen any direct change, but it really matters vertical by vertical.
Pablo Singzon: Yes. So in the small -- you said change in our clients?
Justin Cohen: Yes, the end clients. The end clients. So there is a dynamic of what we call nano accounts. Nano accounts are accounts that they're very -- they're priced at admitted market pricing. So let's say, a small business with sub-$1,000 pricing. That business is always in between E&S and admitted and there is some pulling back of it into the admitted space. Sometimes a lot of that business also go away. So it has never been core to us, and they don't provide really good economics because lower retention and they could be volatile. So we are seeing that sort of disappearance again of the nano accounts. So it's not a lot of premium.
Chris Schenk: It can be volume. But in terms of the -- we are 2 degrees removed from our end clients, but we do study that, and we study the economy. We talked about last quarter how each of our verticals has a different sensitivity. But overall, we have not seen any material change in our end clients' financial and economic health.
Justin Cohen: Yes. So what -- where we are seeing some change in consumer preference or insured preferences is in the midsized middle market clients. So think of a family real estate investment firm, 5 apartment buildings. They're now facing tougher lending requirements from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Banks are scrutinizing their financing. Meanwhile, there is regulatory uncertainty that's being driven by adoption of building codes on the property side as well as some things like even the New York City municipal elections, which would affect housing and real estate development. So you have all these dynamics that they are really attentive to coverage. So I've had the privilege of meeting some of our retailers and actually some end insurers over the last quarter. And that's what I'm hearing from them. They're worried about these developments and how they will affect coverage.
Pablo Singzon: Okay. And then my second question, the submission volumes, interesting data point there. Are you able to process and quote as much of those submissions as you're seeing? Or is there any bottleneck in your operations right now?
Justin Cohen: No, we have a very efficient operation, and that's been part of our story is to be able to handle this kind of volume, and we've done it. And we talked about during the IPO process, how we had front-loaded the investments ahead of growth to be able to manage these. One thing we have done is we've been very conservative about the box and our underwriting appetite. Chris, do you want to talk about that?
Chris Schenk: Yes. So on the underwriting -- sorry, the restriction. Ultimately, what you're seeing is a lower hit rates for our business or stable hit rates at relatively low levels, which really speaks to the conservatism of what we're doing, but we can handle this volume.
Justin Cohen: Yes. Sorry. Yes. So in one of the -- in my comments, I said also quote volumes went up, right? I think that's a really strong story for us because we have been investing in the technology capability to handle high volume at the top of the funnel, the top of the funnel being submissions, right, where you need to sort through a lot and not everything is going to fit the box, and we have been tightening the box in each of our channels. So we are able to -- we were able to handle and absorb that volume with significantly lower relative cost. And when it comes to quotes, our streamlined quoting process for the small to medium-sized to low medium-sized accounts, which is our simplified productionized underwriting where we're looking at the essential things that matters for the risk at hand and not following the industry's randomness, if you will. For that category, we were able to crank through a lot of quotes with the resources we had in place.
Operator: Your next question comes from the line of Elyse Greenspan with Wells Fargo.
Elyse Greenspan: My first question, within the fourth quarter guide, right, you guys said that you expect to continue to grow about 20% above the industry. Is that a target? Like when we think out to '26, '27 and beyond, is that something that you guys think you can kind of hit on a consistent basis?
Justin Cohen: So thanks for that question. We're not going to talk about '26 guidance, but this is the way we think about the business. And you can -- as we come to the next quarter, you'll hear from us in how we describe how we expect to take share, and we measure that in outsized growth relative to the market. We obviously think we have a big runway here. Our network continues to grow, and we have lots of -- not only our existing growth initiatives that you've been hearing about are still in the early days. We also have new growth initiatives in the pipeline that are to come. As you heard, these type of growth opportunities are really truly proprietary to us, and therefore, we think we have an edge to be able to continue taking share in the market.
Elyse Greenspan: And then the fee income, right, piece continues to grow a little bit over $2 million in the quarter, and I think, right, just around 2.4 points a contra on the expense ratio. Is that -- how do we think about modeling going forward just relative to the fee income contribution?
Chris Schenk: Yes. The fees can be variable depending on the type of business that we write in the quarter. This happened to be a quarter that lined up for higher fees. We think that we'll even guide to here that as we look to Q4, we think the number would be more like $1.5 million. But furthermore, when you think about how you model that as well, there are direct third-party expenses that go along with those fees. So it's not just a pure top line adjustment.
Justin Cohen: So it's really important to understand there's a service at the end of the fee, right? So if the service is required for the insured at hand, that's when we charge it. So depending on what we're writing, it's not premium driven, it's volume driven.
Elyse Greenspan: That makes sense. And then from a loss ratio perspective, it doesn't sound like there was anything one-off in the loss ratio. Obviously, some shifting with mix shift towards casualty. But anything within the loss ratio? I know there was no PYD and a small amount of cat, but anything else you would call out in the quarter?
Chris Schenk: No. I would just describe that if you're looking at our ex-cat ratios, for example, and you will see that there was some increases there. This is really all associated with conservatism in property. And so we have had a lower, effectively a lower amount of claims. But as a public company, we are not taking any risk in terms of late claims coming in. So we have booked at higher losses. So that's really the dynamic that you're seeing there, conservatism in our property.
Elyse Greenspan: And with the conservatism in property, would you settle that in the fourth quarter like in the current year? Or if there's favorable development? Or would that be something you would think about next year?
Chris Schenk: It really is rolling, and it's really actuarial based. And so we leave that to our Head of Reserving to do that and look at it on a claim-by-claim basis as well as the trends and the expected downside in terms of late reported claims.
Operator: Your next question comes from the line of Andrew Kligerman with TD Cowen.
Andrew Kligerman: Justin, I think you guided to just a little while ago to like a 90% combined in the next quarter. And I was -- I thought that the expense ratios were particularly compelling, particularly the operating expense ratio at 10.8%, but the acquisition expense ratio worked better than I had expected as well. Should we be looking at the overall expense ratio at about 29%, maybe a touch less than that as a run rate in that 90% combined ratio that you just cited?
Justin Cohen: Yes. That is not far from it. We -- there will be some small benefits coming through on the commission ratio sequentially. but that is going to be an overtime type situation. On a gross basis, it is -- there are strengths there. Remember also that we have the quota share rolling off, which is going to provide more income to us, but that will be an offset as we move forward as well. And then with the operating expense ratio, with the adjustment in fees, there will be a tick up in the fourth quarter, but we are very enthusiastic about our ability to continue to drive operating leverage over time. And so those are some of the dynamics there, and that would lead to that 90% combined.
Andrew Kligerman: Got it. That was helpful. And yes, I mean, pretty exciting 70% increase in submissions and I know earlier you were talking about the hit ratio not being super high. But what I'm kind of interested in is the expansion of your distribution and the type of expansion? Is this coming mostly from the brokers as opposed to the agents that are doing kind of smaller ticket stuff? Like maybe a little color around the type of distribution expansion you're seeing more of.
Justin Cohen: Yes. It is very broad-based across both brokers and agents, and it also weighs in with our growth initiatives, which are -- we're obviously opening new relationships for these growth initiatives. I'll pass it over to Chris to talk further about the details there.
Chris Schenk: So we're attracting sort of a broad spectrum of agents and brokers who focus on the small and medium-sized risk that we are aligned to plus those who have access to unique geographies such as the Midwest. So it's really exciting to watch the numbers come in on our Midwest strategy because these are partners who are -- they are in South Dakota, and you may not think many of our peers would maybe not even visit them, and we have and we have built a strong relationship and explain the value proposition, it's appealing. So that's one demographic that's driving it. The other demographic is really what we've talked about before. It's the digital native brokers. It is that new generation of brokers who are a little bit fed up with the way the business is transacted in this space. And the 5 days -- waiting 5 days to hear back if you're even going to get a quote is just not working for them. we are able to offer something that is appealing. There's a lot of enthusiasm there. And then there is your sort of more established brokers within the larger agencies within the larger brokerages who really value just the straightforwardness of what we're offering to the market. They know what they're getting. They have gone through cycles. They've seen p gimmicks and they're kind of over it. And when you can speak plainly to them and say, this is what we offer, this is what we don't do, it works.
Andrew Kligerman: Got it. And maybe if I can just sneak one more in. I was on the Chubb call this morning, and they talked about pricing being particularly soft in property in the large end of the market, and now it's kind of seeped into the larger end of mid but the lower end of mid, it just hasn't gotten there yet and certainly not in small per their commentary as well as many others. So my question to you is, how are you thinking about pricing down the road? Do you think your small business and maybe the lower end of mid will hold up for a long period of time? Or do you see this pricing pressure keeping in eventually and maybe sooner than later?
Chris Schenk: Thanks, Andrew. We are endeavoring not to make a market call here. We are -- what we are seeing is we are getting mid- to high single-digit rate increases in property, which is in our space, which is really quite good. You'll remember that we -- I mentioned earlier that we had higher rate increases that we've anniversaried, but we're getting solid rates.
Justin Cohen: Yes. So pricing is one of those foundation stones for us. Technical pricing cost, charging the cost of product is essential. So I mentioned product, and that's becoming more and more the requirement. It's not optional for the insured, right? So there's been this hypothesis that it's all about pricing, customers don't care about coverage once they're in E&S. Well, that's not the case anymore because there's a mandate. There's a requirement at the federal level. So I'll give you -- if you'll indulge me, I'll give you a very obscure example that is really impactful and what's happening in the industry right now is nobody else is thinking about it, which is a problem. So there were -- there's new national electrical codes that were established in 2023 that have to do with things like basically grenifying of buildings, right? So when there's a coverage on the property, ordinance and law, where you have to effectively coverage for bringing buildings back up to code once they are repaired. Well, these new requirements are driving up the requirements for ordinance law. So people might say property market is soft, but someone is going to get a loan and they need to now have 25% of their value -- building value towards ordinance and law. So when you start talking about coverage and what is required, they're going to pay a premium for that because they need the loan. So it's not a -- in that mid space, I don't see a soft market or a perceived soft market filtering up. I see actually maybe a hardening in that space because of lending requirements.
Operator: The next question comes from the line of Matthew Heimermann with Citi.
Matthew Heimermann: A couple of quick ones, I think. Just it's not like you're growing property very rapidly relative to total. But I'm just curious, how much more growth before we have to think about reinsurance structures changing relative to how you've historically articulated PMLs and other risk tolerance metrics.
Chris Schenk: Yes. No. If you'll recall, we operate a limited cat strategy, and so we are not exposing ourselves to incremental amounts of cat risk. And our growth is manageable here, and it's well within the context of our existing reinsurance contracts.
Matthew Heimermann: Okay. And that's just tying the -- or connecting the dots that's a lot of the property growth you talked about getting was going to come out of Midwest strategy, and that's effectively what we're seeing at this point?
Justin Cohen: Yes. So we have talked about our geospatial spread approach to writing property. That's really coming through in the Midwest. There are about 730 hamlets, I'll call them across the Midwest where we never had a footprint, and we are now writing business there. Those are large spaces where we are spread out, right? So that geospatial spread element is coming through as we win in the Midwest. The Midwest, as I mentioned, was along with some other initiatives was responsible for about 50% of our growth, and that was particularly strong in property. So we are not adding in Florida. That's the thing. We're not adding in Texas. We're not only adding in Texas and Florida rather. We are everywhere.
Matthew Heimermann: Okay. That's good. As a Minnesota kid, I never really thought about my backyard as the English Country side, but I appreciate the compare. The other -- a couple of other questions I have was just, can you give us any sense of just kind of what the growth rates look by maybe the premium cohorts because you add a couple of brokerage clients through your digital channel with a small agent in the Midwest, right, like that's a disproportionate kind of impact. So I'm just wondering if there's other -- another lens on growth kind of by account size or cohorts.
Justin Cohen: Yes. The account size bands have not changed meaningfully in any way. We have -- as Chris mentioned earlier, we've written less of these nano accounts, but we're also writing small midsized accounts. So there are offsets there. So really, overall, the bands themselves are not changing very much.
Matthew Heimermann: That's helpful. And I guess the last one is -- well, one numbers question quick was just can you give the -- can you split the utility income disclosure in the press release between kind of income and mark -- sorry, in your investment income disclosure, can you split the utility income between income and marks?
Justin Cohen: Yes. It's less than $100,000 net in core NII for the utility and infrastructure investments in NII. Are you asking for further split in the realized and unrealized gains?
Matthew Heimermann: No. If I've got that, I can -- I think I can back that out of the utility, and then I can wait for the queue for the rest. The other question was just can you elaborate -- you used this term improved economics, and it wasn't clear as I was listening and maybe I didn't hear what you were trying to say. But in your opening comments, you talked about improved economics. in the quarter. And it implied more than just kind of what's happening with the expense ratio, but I just wondered if you could revisit that if there's anything you'd embellish or clarify there.
Justin Cohen: Yes. We were referring to the holistic nature of now that we have scale in brokerage that as we're writing more business in brokerage, that is accretive to our bottom line. And you're seeing that in the commission ratio. You can see it in the expense ratio, but you can't exactly see how that's coming through, but that's what's happening.
Matthew Heimermann: That was helpful. I was trying to contrast that with your rate comment, and it wasn't obvious from that, but that would have in and of itself explain it.
Justin Cohen: We're expecting for that to acquire an account to fill it.
Operator: Your last question comes from the line of Alex Scott with Barclays.
Taylor Scott: I just wanted to see if you could give any color on products that you may be prepping to expand into the brokerage area like going upmarket a bit. Can you talk about if you have any of that kind of activity going on over the next, call it, 6 months or so?
Justin Cohen: Right. In terms of the -- this question of upmarket, what you've seen, we don't think of it that way. What we've done in the past 6 months is we have taken products and verticals that we underwrite and we have opened them in the brokerage channel. Those are paying off. And those -- we're going to continue to have those work over the next several quarters. Anything else, Chris, you'd like to add to that on product?
Chris Schenk: Yes. So we launched a retail vertical, most recently in brokerage, that's an example of what's to come. In terms of true product launches, nothing on the road map that we can discuss now. And what we are continuously doing, though, for the micro segments we're in, we are genuinely studying the external environment and trying to model out those cause and effect scenarios and optimize our offering within each of those verticals. So when we think of product, we don't think about doing more products, we think about like really meeting the evolving needs of these markets that we're already in, and that's a huge opportunity for us.
Operator: There are no further questions at this time. Management, do you have any closing remarks?
Justin Cohen: No. We just want to thank everyone for joining and listening, and we look forward to catching up with many of you in the days ahead. Take care.
Operator: Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's call. Thank you all for joining, and you may now disconnect.
